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Kirock

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Reply with quote  #16 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManInBlack

So I'll answer the question on Kirock's Wraith planet, where I've just seen the mirror episode. IT'S WRONG TO CHANGE ANYONE WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE.

Now I'm back on Earth, IT'S STILL WRONG. Please kill me before you turn me into a wraith, and I'll gladly return the favor to any wraiths I encounter.

Ok Man In Black, I see what you are saying. But, isn't it a gray area? Which is more wrong, to change someone without their knowledge, or to kill them?

 

And I like your idea about somehow adjusting the humans to remove them from the food chain. To quote from a Next Generation episode, they need to "sour the milk."

 

Do you think the Wraith think humans "taste like chicken!"

ManInBlack

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirock


Ok Man In Black, I see what you are saying. But, isn't it a gray area? Which is more wrong, to change someone without their knowledge, or to kill them?

And I like your idea about somehow adjusting the humans to remove them from the food chain. To quote from a Next Generation episode, they need to "sour the milk."

Do you think the Wraith think humans "taste like chicken!"



It's more wrong to change them without their knowledge. Put yourself in the situation. If you don't find it wrong, then you're one of the people who would volunteer to be changed in order to coexist. In that case it wouldn't be without your knowledge.

If you could be aware that you might have been altered, how could you trust that your feelings and opinions were really your feelings and opinions? If there was something that you were putting your life on the line for, how would you deal with that little twinge of "do I even believe in this?"?

Your "tastes like chicken" question returns me to another thought. Do the Wraith eat solids, or do they just "feed" from life energy? If they don't eat, then the act of eating would have been totally foreign to Michael. He wouldn't just wake up and pick up a fork.

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chevy

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Reply with quote  #18 

So basically we just need to find something (or someone) the Wraith like better than humans!


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MACJR

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Reply with quote  #19 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nannyjo

They were ALL idiots in this episode.  It was another HUGE bad decision that is apparently quickly becoming a pattern in this show.   It is pretty sad when dumb as a rock Ronan is the only one who seems to make smart choices any more.

The sessions with the phychiatrist were the "best"  She goes completely along with the lie and then wants him to "open up" to her once the truth comes out. She was just lucky she wasn't the first to get killed.

I have a feeling that won't be the last we see of him.... and THIS time it is the humans fault.  Its almost like I feel they are getting what they deserve.

.... Stupid people

 

The UP side of this episode was Rodney's comment about the Blue Jello!!!! 

So far, NJ’s post most resembles my opinion of this episode (and the last few).

 

In this case, I am not quite sure what to think in regards to whether it was wrong or right to change another sentient species, without consent, into another species. This is truly a deep shade of grey for me… but only because the Wraith feed on humans like they are cattle and/or chickens. It is not quite the same as forcing a conversion of an enemy of principals to your way of thinking just because you can. This is more a matter of survival and wellbeing of and entire species, not just to win a war of political, religious, or cultural values of one group over another.

 

However, if the Wraith were human Muslims, and the crew of Atlantis were Christians, then the answer is pure and simple, this concept of genetic manipulation to force a conversion to Christianity would be totally wrong.

 

 

MACJR


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Kirock

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Reply with quote  #20 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManInBlack

It's more wrong to change them without their knowledge. Put yourself in the situation. If you don't find it wrong, then you're one of the people who would volunteer to be changed in order to coexist. In that case it wouldn't be without your knowledge.

If you could be aware that you might have been altered, how could you trust that your feelings and opinions were really your feelings and opinions? If there was something that you were putting your life on the line for, how would you deal with that little twinge of "do I even believe in this?"?

Your "tastes like chicken" question returns me to another thought. Do the Wraith eat solids, or do they just "feed" from life energy? If they don't eat, then the act of eating would have been totally foreign to Michael. He wouldn't just wake up and pick up a fork.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on the first part Man In Black, in my humble opinion I believe that it is more wrong to kill them if there is a way to change them to prevent it - with or without their knowledge.

 

Your second part makes excellent sense to me though. If they are in any way aware of the change then it definitely would eat away at them inside, with a vague feeling that something was wrong. If the method of conversion didn't completely remove their awareness of it than it probably would not work.

 

And the last part, I believe that they can live just by feeding on the life force, but there was at least one episode that showed they can eat solids as well, if they chose to. But it was actually a rhetorical question, come on - "tastes like chicken?" The Lion King?

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MACJR

However, if the Wraith were human Muslims, and the crew of Atlantis were Christians, then the answer is pure and simple, this concept of genetic manipulation to force a conversion to Christianity would be totally wrong.

MACJR



Great analogy MACJR.

Sorry, Kirock, I am a bloodthirsty little devil. I don't think that violence, in and of itself, is a bad thing. Here on Earth we're finding it hard to segregate ourselves from our enemies, imagine what it will be like if we both have interstellar drives and beaming technology.

There will be no place to hide. The choices will be to get along or kill each other. I prefer the first, I'm even a proponent of turned cheeks and multiple chances. But once that choice has been denied I'm not much for half-measures.

If one species is going to survive it will be mine.

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waltcesca

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MACJR

Quote:
Originally Posted by nannyjo

They were ALL idiots in this episode.  It was another HUGE bad decision that is apparently quickly becoming a pattern in this show.   It is pretty sad when dumb as a rock Ronan is the only one who seems to make smart choices any more.

The sessions with the phychiatrist were the "best"  She goes completely along with the lie and then wants him to "open up" to her once the truth comes out. She was just lucky she wasn't the first to get killed.

I have a feeling that won't be the last we see of him.... and THIS time it is the humans fault.  Its almost like I feel they are getting what they deserve.

.... Stupid people

 

The UP side of this episode was Rodney's comment about the Blue Jello!!!! 

So far, NJ’s post most resembles my opinion of this episode (and the last few).

 

In this case, I am not quite sure what to think in regards to whether it was wrong or right to change another sentient species, without consent, into another species. This is truly a deep shade of grey for me… but only because the Wraith feed on humans like they are cattle and/or chickens. It is not quite the same as forcing a conversion of an enemy of principals to your way of thinking just because you can. This is more a matter of survival and wellbeing of and entire species, not just to win a war of political, religious, or cultural values of one group over another.

 

However, if the Wraith were human Muslims, and the crew of Atlantis were Christians, then the answer is pure and simple, this concept of genetic manipulation to force a conversion to Christianity would be totally wrong.

 

 

MACJR

 

   MACJR I am gonna have to politely disagree with you here. I personally cannot see how you can compare two religious differences between members of the same species (Human) to the differences between two different species! Not even between two different races, but species! We cannot and should not try to put the Wraith into terms of 'really just humans that don't know it yet' The Wraith, no matter what we might hope, are a different species from the human! It is what it is, Apples & Onions, so to speak.

    Anyway, I think that using the Wraith to find a cure for the venom that infested Ford is honorable. If the Wraith wanted a cure for anything the Humans gave them, they would try to experiment on humans. Doesn't make it right OR wrong, it just is.


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MACJR

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Reply with quote  #23 

Um, Walt, try reading what I said again. 

 

I did not say, "like," I said "if." As in if it was a different situation but using the same immoral genetic manipulation technology.

 

Regardless of the Wraith’s hostile disposition, I say immoral in that it was used without consent on an intelligent being. This same genetic technology could be used in many very useful, and humane, ways but should never be used without the consent of the person or beings being manipulated if they are intelligent enough to be able to object if given a chance.

 

Since the Wraith are so hostile to humans, all humans, this may be one of the only exceptions to that rule, but even in this case it seems more wrong than right to me.

 

Imagine though if this technology was used to cure people with genetic defects, now that I can go for with a clear conscience, but again, only if it is used with the consent of the person being treated.

 

Now imagine if you will if this technology was used in more selfish ways, like adding a solution to bottled drinking water that makes everyone who drinks it crave broccoli so farmers can make more money. What if some of those who drank the water are allergic to broccoli and die as a result? This is the kind of slippery slope you could find yourself on if you keep stretching your definitions of what is right and what is wrong.

 

 

MACJR

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chevy

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Reply with quote  #24 

Maybe there's something we're overlooking here.  Didn't you notice how Michael didn't kill Teyla after he returned to being a Wriath?  Whoa this could turn into a whole new discussion about the positive influence of humans!


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ManInBlack

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltcesca

 I personally cannot see how you can compare two religious differences between members of the same species (Human) to the differences between two different species! Not even between two different races, but species! We cannot and should not try to put the Wraith into terms of 'really just humans that don't know it yet' The Wraith, no matter what we might hope, are a different species from the human! It is what it is, Apples & Onions, so to speak.




I think this was the underlying moral.

As we all look at what is and is not a parallel, the fact is that different is different.

There have been various rationalizations, and we've reflected on the allegory in other topics.

There is something we see as the enemy. He wouldn't be the enemy if only he was different. Wouldn't it be easier on everybody if he just changed?

Isn't taking away the basic differences in something quite literally killing it's individuality? There's this weird mosh of personality traits within me that says yes.

Isn't changing someone into someone they are not for the sole purpose of integrating them into your society dangerously close to slavery?

Given the choice, I'd rather die than give up what makes me me. If an adversary is unworthy of the same choice,  then they have moved from adversary to pest, and I need to take a reality check on my judgement before moving something on those lists.


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