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MACJR

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariane
Well animals are not self-aware, they are instinctive beings. It's probably the reason why they love us  unconditionally when we take care of them... despite our flaws

Hmm, I am not convinced that animals are not self-aware. I am not saying a cat or dog can do complex algebra, such as working with trinomials and imaginary numbers, but I do believe that most animals have a sense of self.

 

Shadow, like most cats, does not acknowledge her image in a mirror... but Siam did. Siam used to watch me in the mirror too. Not only was Siam aware of self, but I am quite positive that she was aware of her image as being a representation of herself, and that my image was a representation of me. When Siam would see my reflection reach out to pet her she was not surprised when my real hand touched her. Perhaps Siam was extra-ordinary as cats go but I still believe that most, if not all, animals are self-aware.

 

I also do not think pets give their love unconditionally. Yes, they will put up with a lot of human craziness, but if someone keep beating an animal that animal is going to try and stay away from that abusive person. I have seen this before... some humans prove over and over again that humans are animals too. 

 

 

MACJR


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waltcesca

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Originally Posted by MACJR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariane
Well animals are not self-aware, they are instinctive beings. It's probably the reason why they love us  unconditionally when we take care of them... despite our flaws

Hmm, I am not convinced that animals are not self-aware. I am not saying a cat or dog can do complex algebra, such as working with trinomials and imaginary numbers, but I do believe that most animals have a sense of self.

 

Shadow, like most cats, does not acknowledge her image in a mirror... but Siam did. Siam used to watch me in the mirror too. Not only was Siam aware of self, but I am quite positive that she was aware of her image as being a representation of herself, and that my image was a representation of me. When Siam would see my reflection reach out to pet her she was not surprised when my real hand touched her. Perhaps Siam was extra-ordinary as cats go but I still believe that most, if not all, animals are self-aware.

 

I also do not think pets give their love unconditionally. Yes, they will put up with a lot of human craziness, but if someone keep beating an animal that animal is going to try and stay away from that abusive person. I have seen this before... some humans prove over and over again that humans are animals too. 

 

 

MACJR


On that train of thought; my dog Lily is VERY friendly. She is fearless and has walked right up to dogs waay bigger than she. Lily will walk up and sniff or kiss any person she meets, male or female, it never seems to matter to her EXCEPT. . . Lily will NOT let ANY boy child get close to her. She will bare her teeth and growl (she never growls), it doesn't matter if we are holding her or not, she doesn't care for boys. We think she ust have had really bad experiences when she was wtih her other family AND/or when she was on the streets! Who knows? She still won't talk to us! As far as mirrors go- well, if she is in our arms, se doesn't care, however, if she sees her own reflection without being 'protected' by are arms, she get's medevil! Growling and barkig, and then she goes to hide from the reflection! Not sure how this makes her not self aware, it just makes her 'cute'.

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MACJR

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I did not mean to imply that only animals that can comprehend that their image is a representation of self are self-aware. I was just trying to point out that there is more to animals than most people seem to think… even some scientists who study these kinds of things.

 

Most animals do not recognize their image as representations of themselves. Some researchers have said that only animals about as evolved as a chimpanzee, or so, can comprehend that a mirror image is an image of themselves, either stating or implying that only animals that see themselves in a mirror can be self-aware. I feel those scientist got it wrong.

 

I am just saying that, from my own personal observations, that even some cats, with a brain about the size of a pea, can comprehend that a mirror image is an image of “self.” To me, this proves that at least one cat was indeed self-aware but I suspect that all cats and dogs, and most other animals, are also self-aware.

 

If one cat was able to see her image and know it was herself, then it seems likely that other cats and dogs also have this potential. Just the fact that one cat could see “self” implies to me that all cats have a sense of self, even if not all cats comprehend themselves being reflected in a mirror.

 

 

MACJR


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Questmaker

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariane
Well animals are not self-aware, they are instinctive beings. It's probably the reason why they love us unconditionally when we take care of them... despite our flaws


I have to disagree. Some animals are more aware than others. Cocoa was one of them. I have had cats that were less aware as well but Cocoa's behavior proved, to most anyone who spent time with him, that he was self-aware. His father was the same way so maybe it is inherited. I'm not saying that he understood everything I told him, there was a bit of a language barrier, but he was more observant than most cats. He actually pouted. No exaggeration. He hated being laughed at and would sit on the other side of the room with his back to the offender. Sound normal? Well he gave himself away because he would glance back over his shoulder to see if anyone noticed he was pouting. No other cat ever exhibited behavior like that. There were so many ways that he proved that he was more than just a normal cat
waltcesca

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Originally Posted by Questmaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariane
Well animals are not self-aware, they are instinctive beings. It's probably the reason why they love us unconditionally when we take care of them... despite our flaws


I have to disagree. Some animals are more aware than others. Cocoa was one of them. I have had cats that were less aware as well but Cocoa's behavior proved, to most anyone who spent time with him, that he was self-aware. His father was the same way so maybe it is inherited. I'm not saying that he understood everything I told him, there was a bit of a language barrier, but he was more observant than most cats. He actually pouted. No exaggeration. He hated being laughed at and would sit on the other side of the room with his back to the offender. Sound normal? Well he gave himself away because he would glance back over his shoulder to see if anyone noticed he was pouting. No other cat ever exhibited behavior like that. There were so many ways that he proved that he was more than just a normal cat


Well PEOPLE are like that also, where is the difference?

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Questmaker

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Originally Posted by waltcesca

Well PEOPLE are like that also, where is the difference?


Good point.
Ariane

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Reply with quote  #22 
You seem to confuse self-awareness, communication and intelligence.

Some species (particularly, birds, dolphins, great apes and chimpanzees species) are capable of mirror self-recognition. Still, this is not because you can recognize yourself in a mirror that you are self-aware (unless as a researcher, you have a restricted meaning of the notion of self-awareness !). Some animals whose brain is not build for self-awareness pass the mirror test. That's the reason why the results of mirror self-recognition are so controversial.
There are probably different levels of self-awareness for the animals.

Anyway, I have never visited Great Pyramids built by apes, nor seen a painting made by a famous elephant-painter. Animals have not proved, in general, that they are able to think about their past, their future, their fear of death so the need to be immortal through art, build societies and cultures. And even if they were self-aware, all that would end like in the movie "The Planets of the Apes"... A war between them and us since they would not accept the fact that we dominate them.



waltcesca

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Reply with quote  #23 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariane
You seem to confuse self-awareness, communication and intelligence.

Some species (particularly, birds, dolphins, great apes and chimpanzees species) are capable of mirror self-recognition. Still, this is not because you can recognize yourself in a mirror that you are self-aware (unless as a researcher, you have a restricted meaning of the notion of self-awareness !). Some animals whose brain is not build for self-awareness pass the mirror test. That's the reason why the results of mirror self-recognition are so controversial.
There are probably different levels of self-awareness for the animals.

Anyway, I have never visited Great Pyramids built by apes, nor seen a painting made by a famous elephant-painter. Animals have not proved, in general, that they are able to think about their past, their future, their fear of death so the need to be immortal through art, build societies and cultures. And even if they were self-aware, all that would end like in the movie "The Planets of the Apes"... A war between them and us since they would not accept the fact that we dominate them.




Ummm go to this site - http://www.elephantartgallery.com/paintings/

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Questmaker

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariane

Anyway, I have never visited Great Pyramids built by apes, nor seen a painting made by a famous elephant-painter. Animals have not proved, in general, that they are able to think about their past, their future, their fear of death so the need to be immortal through art, build societies and cultures.



Not everyone can build a pyramid or create great art. And I have met some people so rooted in the now that they can't see the future. And remember that our societies weren't built by the majority but rather by a creative few.
Personally I never considered the self-awareness of my cats until Cocoa came into my life. Some animals just seem more advanced that their peers just like there are people more advanced. I'm not saying that these animals are geniuses but they are smarter than the average animal.
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This was painted by an elephant, it is titled, 'Spectators'

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Ariane

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This was painted by an elephant, it is titled, 'Spectators'


LOL what a coincidence...

Anyway, this is not Art since :
_ We give them a paper and a pencil brush to paint. Elephants would not paint by their own willingness.
_ Only, we, humans, interpret what they have done as Art.

It's just another way to divert us, humans, to make elephants paint, or another way to do business !

So the real question is : Is this addition of colors on a white paper is considered as Art from this elephant mind ? Has this a sense for him ? The answer is obviously NO. And what is considered Art for us has probably a different expression for animals : There are many ways to express ideas and feelings, not only by writing or painting for instance.


waltcesca

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Reply with quote  #27 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariane
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltcesca


This was painted by an elephant, it is titled, 'Spectators'


LOL what a coincidence...

Anyway, this is not Art since :
_ We give them a paper and a pencil brush to paint. Elephants would not paint by their own willingness.
_ Only, we, humans, interpret what they have done as Art.

It's just another way to divert us, humans, to make elephants paint, or another way to do business !

So the real question is : Is this addition of colors on a white paper is considered as Art from this elephant mind ? Has this a sense for him ? The answer is obviously NO. And what is considered Art for us has probably a different expression for animals : There are many ways to express ideas and feelings, not only by writing or painting for instance.


LOL that sounds like something my old art teacher would have said, actually, it IS something I told my art teacher! I look at 'art' and not only do not see why people would pay money for it, but can't for the life of me see why it is considered 'art'. Kinda like that artist that does those huge paitigs that look like he just throw some paint on some canvas and apparently someone ELSE thought it was art! I look at Picaso and am not in the least bit moved to think it is 'great' art. I even look at Michealanglo and don't see 'greatness'. Thereby proving, beyond a shoadow that art really is in the eye of the beholder! Now, don't get me wrong, I have seen artist that I liked, but mostly the Gothic forms, not so much any of the Romantic period pieces. I rarely have liked anything AFTER 1900, but they are out there. But, IF you look at what this elephant has done, and compare it to it's other pieces, you can see there is definately 'human-like' forms there (or trees, who knows?). I have watched this particular elephant work, it actually seems to pick which colors it is going to use. Isn't that proof of an awareness? I think so. But again, unil an elephant actually talks to someone and says it is self aware. . . oh wait, don't some Chimpanzees have a huge vocabulary through sign language? Haven't those same taught chimps in the wild that language as well? Is THAT self awareness?
   The problem I see is that we humans are a bit too smug in our own self awareness that we have refused to believe that anything else could possible be self aware by our standards! Who knows? Perhaps it is US that are less than aware and the
other sentient beings feel we are not worth sharing the true secret of being self aware.

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